TUNKU NIK MAN MARHUM TUNKU NIK SALLEH MARHUM TUNKU NIK CHIK MARHUM TUNKU MUHAMMAD CHAN

TUNKU NIK MAN MARHUM TUNKU NIK SALLEH MARHUM TUNKU NIK CHIK MARHUM TUNKU MUHAMMAD CHAN

Sabtu, 25 Ogos 2012

E-MAIL KEPADA CRISHTOPER BUYERS -ROYALARK


Good evening Christopher,

 

How are you today?

Hope things are going very well..(as I could notice it in Royalark.net:) )

Christopher,

I've noticed lots of additions and amendments of in, at least, the Kelantan genealogy in Royalark. For example, in Kelant6, where you've mentioned at last the existence of the most-probable my ancestor Tengku Long Muhammad Saleh ibn Long Mansor of Jeram, married to Tengku Tengah (Tengku Kembang), the princess of Sultan Ahmad Tengah.

 

"12) Y.A.M. Tengku Sharifa binti al-Marhum Sultan Ahmad [Tengku Tengah], Tengku Kembang (d/o Nik Embong). m. Y.M. Tuan Engku Long Muhammad Salleh bin Tengku Mansur [Long Soh], Engku Selia Raja (d.

after 1936), elder son of Y.M. Engku Long Mansur bin Engku Long Sri, Engku Selia Raja, of Jeram. She had issue, three sons – see above."

 

Last 4th of Syawal, I took the opportunity of my festive holidays in Kelantan to meet Tengku Idham and his grandfather (nenda), the Tokku of Kampung Pagar Raja, Pasir Puteh. I was on the way from Tumpat where  celebrated most of my Hari raya Aidil Fitri 1433 H holidays, to Dungun, Terengganu where the engagement ceremony of my younger brother Muhammad Firdaus took place. Althought Tokku didn't reveal much information of Tengku Saleh as he was some kind of reluctant to speak to a stranger "with no apparent motive", Tengku Idham spoke about TELMS b. TM, who had a record of a retreat to Kedah via Narathiwat after Tengku Long Mansor's death (or capture) by the Siamese. The timeline should be during early 1900's, which matches well with our family account. As our account also speak of "a person of the Palace who manages the despatch of Bunga Emas", I now 99% confident that this TELMS is our great-grandfather. The post Engku Selia Raja just describes well his function of administering the Palace and things related to Bunga Emas.

 

During my early search, I had encountered ignorant remarks from my uncle who described Tengku Saleh as " a man who had the talent to fabricate fake coins, escaped to Kelantan as the British searched for him to be tried".  This uncle lived only several years of his early life with Tengku Daie bin Tengku Saleh and I just rubbished his opinion, although it still got something to do with coins like the Bunga Emas. Most of our family account comes from Haznah binti Tengku Daie who hosted Tengku Daie during his final years and Azura binti Tengku Daie, the youngest child who spent some 18 years with him, wrote some notes on his genealogy but unfortunately lost the manuscript due to carelessness. Azura told me 2 days before the past Hari raya that Tengku Daie was consistently firm on his father's origin, Kelantan. Yes, he was named according to Kedah's convention because his mother most probably was the daughter of Tengku Abdullah Lebar ibn Tengku Muhammad Sa'ad from the Kedah Royal Family.

 

Tengku Hezli, the great-grandchildren of TAL ibn TMS was also called by me yesterday, telling me that he met Tengku Rokman, his eldest uncle on the 1st of Syawal 1433H and asked him about Tengku Daie.

Tengku Rokman confirmed that Tengku Daie was of Kelantanese descent from his father Tengku Saleh.

 

Christopher,

Please do comment on my above-mentioned findings.

 

I also noticed on some amendments to TLMS ibn Sultan Ahmad Tengah's account.

 

"3) Y.B.M. Tengku Long Muhammad Salleh ibni al-Marhum Sultan Ahmad [Tuan Leh], Tengku Temenggong (full brother of Soh) (s/o Engku Selia Raja). MSC 1900-1913. m. Engku Nanik. He d. at Kota Bharu, 30th April

1913 (bur. there at the Royal Cemetery, Langgar). "

 

Before, if i'm not mistaken, it was like "d. before 1934 or 1936".

 

On his grave at Langgar, I went there in 2009 and found no grave of his there. Maybe his name was not written on his tombstones but this is quite strange as he was an important figure in the Palace, the Tengku Temenggong. When I asked Tengku Iskandar of Istana Dusun Green, Pasir mas through his web www.IstanaDusunGreen.com (defunct), he told me that TLMS' grave was unknown. Some said he got married to some commoner and lived in low profile somewhere in Kelantan until his death. Some said his grave is in Narathiwat.

Please comment on this as well.

 

Thanks in advance Christopher,

 

Yours sincerely,

Mahadhir bin Mat Lazim

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Mahadhir bin Mat Lazim <donlaurel@gmail.com>

Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 19:28:42 +0800

Subject: Fwd: Y.M. Tunku Muhammad Sa’ad

To: Christopher Buyers <susuhanan@hotmail.co.uk>

Cc: yaomarman <yaomarman@gmail.com>, Mohamad Firdaus Mat Lazim <firdaus@flexoffice.net>, Rohaida Binti Mat lazim <haida@sirim.my>

 

Dear Christopher,

Thank you for the comments. I didn't notice the date error there.

Anyway we could take 1923/24 as his year of death.

 

Our extended-relative Nik Ya Omar Nik Man (descendant of Tunku Long

Putera) suggested through his interview with older people around Sg Bakap and Kulim that our Tunku Sa'ad might be that one who fought the Siamese in 1838. Anyway, all the Sa'ad we have are pointing to Sultan Abdullah Mukarram Syah, so at least we know that we belong to one big family.

 

Thank you again Christopher, I will contact you when we start the new research. Until then, have a nice day ahead and May Allah Bless for all the goodwill efforts we do.

 

With Warmest Regards,

Mahadhir bin Mat Lazim

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Christopher Buyers <susuhanan@hotmail.co.uk>

Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 10:50:02 +0000

Subject: RE: Y.M. Tunku Muhammad Sa’ad



 

 

Dear Mahadhir, I am afraid that I cannot advise on which Sa'ad may be your ancestor, there is not enough evidence to choose between the two.

The inscription on the tombstone may need a little more investigating by a handwriting expert because the dates do not tally. 1st Muharram

1343 AH began on 3rd August 1924 AD, so 1923 does not tally with 1343, even though the second and last Arabic figures definitely read "3".

The missing word may give a clue. The trouble with Kelantan is that, you are right to accept oral evidence and there is some truth in much of what is claimed, but the trouble is that there is just so much nonsense that one cannot tell which part is true and which not. With best wishes,Christopher  > Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 16:51:22 +0800

> Subject: Fwd: Y.M. Tunku Muhammad Sa’ad




> 

> Good afternoon Christopher..

> 

> To cut it short, I will take your suggestions then and restart the

> whole investigation from Kedah, as it's always good to follow a person

> who has done extensive research works internationally like you, apart

> from adding some Malay methods into it when it's appropriate.

> 

> I will contact you, God's willing, from time to time along the course

> of the renewed research and really hope for your willingness to help,

> to give ideas etc and I understand your time constraints as you're

> currently working on lots of related researches..

> 

> Regarding the attachment, I'm not sure if you read Jawi. I'll just

> transcribe the writing on Tengku Abdullah Lebar's tombstone for you:

> Line 1: Allahyarham : Allah blessed

> Line 2: Tengku Abdullah Lebar Al-Haj

> Line 3: Ibn Tengku Muhammad Sa'ad

> Line 4: telah kembali ke Rahmatullahi Ta'ala : Has returned to the

> Mercy of Allah the Highest

> Line 5: pada [unrecognizable] Hijrah 13x3 : on [   ] Hijrah 13X3 (lost number)

> Line 6: bersamaan 1923 Masihi : equivalent to 1923 Year of Jesus (Isa

> Al-Masih) Line 7: Al-fatihah : the name of the first verse in the Qur'an.

> 

> Do you have any suggestion which Tengku Muhammad Sa'ad would it be?

> According to the timeline etc..

> 

> Thanks in advance Christopher and hope to hear from you soon..

> 

> Saludos desde Selangor,

> Mahadhir bin Mat Lazim

> 

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------

> From: Mahadhir bin Mat Lazim <donlaurel@gmail.com>

> Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 11:48:00 +0800

> Subject: Re: Y.M. Tunku Muhammad Sa’ad

> To: Christopher Buyers <susuhanan@hotmail.co.uk>

> Cc: yaomarman <yaomarman@gmail.com>

> 

> Dear Christopher,

> 

> Thank you eternally for your time, commitment and efforts on helping

> us with all the data, opinions etc. This is getting lots more

> exciting...

> 

> Regarding the name "Daie", yes, my grandfather was named under Kedah

> convention, so did Tunku Abdul Hamid, Muhammad Saad, Abdullah, all are

> distinctively of Kedah and could be seen repeated again and again

> throughout the whole database. (except for Daie :) )

> 

> My curiosity is why my grandfather always stressed on his father

> "Kelantanness" and I regret not to dig deep into his knowledge while

> he was alive, poor still all this search and investigation started

> after the death of my father.

> 

> Regarding Graham's "Kelantan..1908", I strongly believe he had a

> credible basis on what he put in the book, as the Limbat siege

> happened in 1902/03, not long before the book was published. A

> descendant of Long Gaffar (Tokku Mat Machang) died last year at the

> age of 90++ in Machang, related the same story and held some alat

> istiadat at his house. Please don't get me wrong, I normally don't buy

> such story as I always ask for evidence, just like Europeans, due to

> my science stream education. But, I don't reject oral traditions if

> they are of some credible basis.

> 

> I'm negotiating terms with some of PKLGK members, and if possible,

> members from the Jembal and Long Yunus family for their DNA samples.

> We will run this test along with the Kedah family and hope this could

> be done before Ramadhan. I believe this is the only way to definitely

> prove things, and clarify them. One of my conditions is no absurd

> claim could be made after the test, either to me or the royal

> institutions, as my goal is only to gather pur family back, know each

> other, and reconnect the Silaturrahim as asked by Allah and the

> Prophet P.B.U.H.

> 

> Christopher,

> Thanks again for all and hope to hear from you soon..

> 

> Warmest Regards,

> Mahadhir bin Mat Lazim

> On 5/2/12, Christopher Buyers <susuhanan@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Mahadhir, Yes, your reading regarding Kulim is correct. If I

> > was you I would concentrate on Kedah sources. Names such as "Daie"

> > pretty clearly point towards Kedah origins. There are one or two

> > families left in Thailand who are descended from the Kedah family. I

> > am working on these right now (not yet online), but so far, I can

> > only see those descended from the branch of the family that used to rule Setul (Satun). Descendants of Tunku Bisnu.

> > They retain the title of Tunku privately and within the Muslim

> > community, but follow Thai laws in relation to the forced use of

> > Thai names, using the surnames Senabut, Bintammahangong, etc. It may

> > well be that there are similar families descended from Tunku

> > Muhammad Sa'ad in Narathiwat, whom you may be better placed in

> > trying to trace. If anyone was in charge of the tribute missions to

> > Siam, bearing the Bunga Mas, then there will be written records in

> > the Thai archives. If it went missing, there would have been an enquiry.

> > Kelantan is a complete mess. They have no proper written genealogies

> > to speak off. Abdullah Munshi visited in 1837 and made some useful

> > notes, but it wasn't until 1932 that at the prompting of the Danish

> > civil servant Anker Rentse, the Mentri Besar and the Sultan drew up

> > a detailed genealogy. In between these dates, there are bits and

> > pieces that can be gleaned from the Trengganu sources. Other than

> > that, there is nothing but speculation, much of it quite fantastic

> > nonsence. The Long Ghaffar line is more speculative still. All this

> > "two state" business is based on a single throw-away line from

> > Graham's "Kelantan: A State of the Malay Peninsular" (1908). There

> > is no historical evidence for it and Graham quotes no source himself

> > in his book. If there was a second state, then where is the evidence

> > of Bunga Mas missions to Siam? Where is the evidence for the

> > conferring of Thai titles or installation of rulers? There is none whatever. It is an established fact that the title of Tengku was not used in Kelantan before about 1890-1900.

> > This is proven by the contemporary seals of the princes engraved

> > with the date of production before this period. The correct titles

> > are Engku, Tuan, Raja and Long (from the Thai title Luang).

> > Consequently, any time you see a Kelantan genealogy assigning the

> > personal title of Tengku to anyone who died before then, you can be

> > sure that it is a modern construction. But of course, they do not

> > have records, so usually cannot tell you when they lived or died. It

> > has all become a sort of 'free for all', where people with some

> > tenuous descent from princesses may have assumed the title, so their

> > cousins with no royal descent whatever, seeing them do so think to

> > themselves, "well, if he his, so am I".  With best

> > wishes,Christopher  > Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 01:21:39 +0800

> >> Subject: Re: Y.M. Tunku Muhammad Sa’ad




> >>

> >> Dear Christopher,

> >>

> >> Thank you for the prompt reply. I was down there at the living room

> >> so I didn't check my e-mail earlier.

> >> So, from your research, Tunku Muhammad Sa’ad bin Tunku Muhammad

> >> Akil did exist, but did not serve as District Head of Kulim. Could

> >> you please confirm my comprehension here?

> >>

> >> Christopher,

> >> My initial hypothesis was great grandfather Tengku Saleh was

> >> married to one of Tengku Abdullah Lebar's princesses, so my

> >> grandfather Tengku Daie was then known as the anak menakan of

> >> Tengku Abdul Hamid bin Tengku Abdullah Lebar. Then came suggestion

> >> that Tengku Saleh was a prince of Tunku Abdullah Lebar himself from

> >> an earlier wife, as it was known that he married at least three times:

> >> A. Tunku Kalsom @ Chom

> >> B. Tunku Bunga  binti Tunku Muhammad Chan C. Tunku Rahmah @ Nai

> >> Imah

> >>

> >> From this Tunku Rahmah born Tunku Abdul Hamid while there is no

> >> record of the first wife's children. Nobody knows which one is the truth.

> >>

> >> Last month I spoke to one of Long Gaffar royal family member,

> >> Tengku Idham, then to Persatuan Kerabat Long Gaffar Kelantan

> >> (PKLGK)'s secretary Tengku Fadzilah, they both confirmed that there

> >> is a record of Tengku Long Saleh ibn Long Mansur ibn Long Seri ibn

> >> Long Gaffar retreat to Kedah via Narathiwat circa 1902/03 due to

> >> his father and the Pahang Rebels capture by the Siamese, the rebels

> >> with Long Mansur were then brought to Bangkok and died there. This

> >> is in coincidence with W.A. Graham's "Kelantan : a state of the

> >> Malay Peninsula", 1908 who clearly spoke about the Long Mansur's

> >> (Tengku Slia) capture with Dato Bahaman, as well as the existence

> >> of 2 "states of equal footing", feudatory to Siam, one led by Long

> >> Yunus' descendants (Sultan Mansur ibn Sultan Ahmad Tengah) and the

> >> other by Long Gaffar's descendants (Long Mansur ibn Long Seri).

> >>

> >> Tengku  Idham also told me that there are descendants of that

> >> Tengku Saleh in Kelantan now from his 2nd and maybe 3rd or 4th

> >> marriage (Tengku Saleh returned to Kelantan after some time), so my

> >> chance to have a concrete DNA testing (y-chromosome) with them is crystal clear.

> >> I already have the consent of Tengku Hezli for his DNA test as well

> >> so it could prove or disprove my initial hypothesis that Tengku

> >> Saleh married Tengku Abdullah Lebar's princess. The key point of

> >> our conversation was wthen I told tengku Idham that our Tengku

> >> Saleh was in-charge of sending the golden flower to Siam and was

> >> seek by the latter due to a delivery failure, he was shocked as

> >> that was the same story they have in their side.

> >>

> >> So, to conclude this, please confirm my understanding of your

> >> statement in the previous mail and please give your opinion on my

> >> Kelantanese affaires.

> >>

> >> Thanks in advance Christopher and have a nice day ahead.

> >>

> >> Warmest Regards,

> >> Mahadhir bin Mat Lazim

> >>

> >> On 5/1/12, Christopher Buyers <susuhanan@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> >> >

> >> > Dear Mahadhir, Thank you for your kind e-mail and I hope you have

> >> > been keeping well during the interval. I am glad to hear that you

> >> > are making some progress on tracing your ancestors, at least in

> >> > finding another link to work with. The note about Tunku Muhammad

> >> > Sa’ad bin Tunku Muhammad Akil being Wakil at Kulim is on a

> >> > genealogy of the descendants of his sister, Tunku Hamida. This is

> >> > the family of the well known Tunku Tan Sri Ismail, who was Chief

> >> > Minister of Kedah in the 1950's and later Ambassador to France

> >> > after independence. However, my own research shows that it was

> >> > Tunku Muhammad bin Tunku Ahmad Taj ud-din a.k.a. Asa'ad who

> >> > served as District Head of Kulim in 1897-1912. Tunku Tan Sri

> >> > Ismail's descendants have probably mixed up the two.

> >> > Hope this helps. With best wishes to you and all your kindred.

> >> > Yours,Christopher > Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 18:00:04 +0800

> >> >> Subject: Y.M. Tunku Muhammad Sa’ad

> >> >> From: donlaurel@gmail.com



> >> >>

> >> >> Good afternoon Christopher..

> >> >>

> >> >> My name is Mahadhir Mat Lazim and we had a short conversation

> >> >> via e-mail back in 2009 when I asked you some information about

> >> >> Tengku Saleh of Kelantan. Unfortunately until now the mistery

> >> >> has not been solved due to lack of time to really go down there and investigate.

> >> >>

> >> >> Anyway, the topic to be discussed here is not Tengku (Long)

> >> >> Salleh but Tunku Muhammad Sa'ad of the Kedah Royal Family. My

> >> >> grandfather was known and it was a common knowledge among the

> >> >> kampong lads back there in Bukit Bertam, Selama, Perak and

> >> >> Mahang, Kedah as the nephew of Tengku Abdul Hamid bin Tengku

> >> >> Abdullah Lebar ibn Tengku Muhammad Sa'ad. The term "anak

> >> >> menakan" (nephew) in the Kedahese dialect is somewhat sombre as

> >> >> it could be used interchangeably to depict "anak

> >> >> saudara"(nephew) or "anak pupu"(son of the cousin). Let us leave

> >> >> the anak menakan issue first to focus on Tunku Muhammad Sa'ad.

> >> >>

> >> >> In Royalrk Kedah4, we could see that there are at least 3  Tunku

> >> >> Muhammad Sa'ad there that of approximate timeline with our ascendant.

> >> >> The first is the famous one Y.M. Tunku Muhammad Sa’ad ibni Tunku

> >> >> Daud who fought the Siamese in 1838, the second is  Tunku

> >> >> Muhammad Sa'ad

> >> >> (Assa'ad) the DO that was of a bit off timeline and the third is

> >> >> Tunku Muhammad Sa'ad ibn Tunku Muhammad Akil.

> >> >> Referring to Kedah4:

> >> >> ===============

> >> >> 8) H.H. Tunku Ya’akub ibni al-Marhum Sultan ‘Abdu’llah

> >> >> al-Mukarram Shah [Tunku Embun] [Tunku Mom], Raja Muda, of Trang.

> >> >> b. before 1778 (s/o Cik Chandra Sari), educ. privately.

> >> >> Appointed as Heir Apparent with the title of Raja Muda 1815.

> >> >> Fled to Ligor when dissappointed by his brother who refused to appoint him as Governor of Perlis in 1815.

> >> >> Intrigued with the Siamese against his brother the Sultan, 1828.

> >> >> However, on their conquest of Kedah, they refused to install him

> >> >> as ruler, preferring to punish him as a traitor instead. He was

> >> >> k. by the Siamese, his chest cut open to expose the heart, at

> >> >> Alor Star, 16th June 1829 (bur. at the Royal Cemetery, Kota

> >> >> Langgar), having had issue, four sons:

> >> >> a) Y.M. Tunku Ja’afar bin ibni al-Marhum Raja Muda Tunku Ya’akub.

> >> >> b) Y.M. Tunku Sulaiman ibni al-Marhum Raja Muda Tunku Ya’akub

> >> >> [Tunku Anum]. He was k. with his father by the Siamese, his body

> >> >> disembowelled, at Alor Star, 16th June 1829 (bur. at the Royal

> >> >> Cemetery, Kota Langgar), having had issue, a son and a daughter:

> >> >> i) Y.M. Tunku Muhammad Akil bin Tunku Sulaiman. Fled to Ligor in

> >> >> 1865 but later permitted to return to Kedah. m. a Perak

> >> >> princess. He had issue, four sons and a daughter:

> >> >> (1) Y.M. Tunku Muhammad Sa’ad bin Tunku Muhammad Akil. (Wakil at

> >> >> Kulim, but this is probably an error for the above).

> >> >> (2) Y.M. Tunku Muhammad Jiwa bin Tunku Muhammad Akil.

> >> >> (3) Y.M. Tunku Hamid bin Tunku Muhammad Akil.

> >> >> (4) Y.M. Tunku Sulaiman bin Tunku Muhammad Akil.

> >> >> ==================

> >> >>

> >> >> We need your help here to clarify "(1) Y.M. Tunku Muhammad Sa’ad

> >> >> bin Tunku Muhammad Akil. (Wakil at Kulim, but this is probably

> >> >> an error for the above).". What did you mean by "Wakil at Kulim,

> >> >> but this is probably an error for the above)"?

> >> >>

> >> >> Thank you in advance Christopher for your help to determine

> >> >> which Tunku Muhammad Sa’ad is actually our ancestor.

> >> >> I've copied this e-mail to my relative Tengku Hezli bin Tengku Abd.

> >> >> Hakim bin Tengku Abdul Hamid bin Tengku Abdullah Lebar bin Tunku

> >> >> Muhammad Sa’ad and to an extended-relative Nik Ya Omar Nik Man

> >> >> who helped us to carry on field research in Kedah itself.

> >> >>

> >> >> Have a nice day ahead Christopher.

> >> >>

> >> >> Warmest Regards,

> >> >> Mahadhir bin Mat Lazim

> >> >> On 7/16/09, Mahadhir MatLazim (DHL MY)


> >> >> wrote:

> >> >> > Christopher..

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Thanks again for your time and effort to answer my questions.

> >> >> > It's indeed a pleasure to communicate for a remote person who

> >> >> > shares the same passion.

> >> >> > :-)

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > My grandfather died at age of 94. What a pity as he lived that

> >> >> > long but nearly none of his children asked and recorded

> >> >> > historically on his narrations. Things made worse when my

> >> >> > father died last year of liver cancer at 62 year-old. He's

> >> >> > from the first wife, Tengku Zaharah binti Tengku Mat Desa, of

> >> >> > Kedah royal families. It was my aunt (Tengku) Haznah who's the

> >> >> > child of my grandfather's third wife managed to grab some

> >> >> > narrations in his last years from him, but also full with

> >> >> > confusions.

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Christopher,

> >> >> >

> >> >> > If it's WWII I don't think so as my grandfather was already in

> >> >> > Kedah during Japanese occupation. I'm aware of several raids

> >> >> > by the Siamese during the 1800s on Kedah but on Kelantan I'm

> >> >> > not so sure.

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Anyway, thanks for your cooperation my friend.

 

> >> >> > Have a nice day ahead.

 

> >> >> > Saludos/Best Regards/Um Abraço,

 

> >> >> > Mahadhir Mat Lazim

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Service Desk Analyst

> >> >> >

> >> >> > IT Services Asia-Pacific

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Asia-Pacific Information Services Sdn Bhd

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Cyberjaya

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Malaysia

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Phone   +603 8315-8080

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Fax     +603 8315-8100

> >> >> >


> >> >> >

> >> >> > ________________________________

> >> >> >

> >> >> > From: Christopher Buyers [mailto:susuhanan@hotmail.co.uk]

> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:42 PM

> >> >> > To: Mahadhir MatLazim (DHL MY)

> >> >> > Subject: RE: Abbreviations

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Dear Mahadhir

> >> >> >

> >> >> > I am afraid that all the informtion that I have is on the

> >> >> > website and I am unable to verify anything of the story.

> >> >> >

> >> >> > As far as I know, Kelantan was not invaded by Siam during the

> >> >> > time you speak of. However, there were two or three conflicts

> >> >> > in Patani, over the Thai border. Many of the Patani families

> >> >> > have close ties with Kelantan and usually settled there after

> >> >> > fleeing from Thai oppression. Some were directly descended

> >> >> > from the Kelantan Royal Family and thus frequently

> >> >> > intermarried with them. So it is possible that your ancestors

> >> >> > were actually from one of these families.

> >> >> >

> >> >> > The only Siamese invasion I can think of is during the Second

> >> >> > World War when Thailand sided with the Japanese and

> >> >> > participated in a few military actions.

> >> >> > Their made a small number of bombing raids and the army

> >> >> > assisted the Japanese. Later in the war Kelantan was turned

> >> >> > over to the Thailand by the latter and was ruled by them until

> >> >> > 1945. So it is also possible that he was speaking of this

> >> >> > period, though the timing seems a little off.

> >> >> >

> >> >> > The adoption of the title of Tengku in Kelantan is relatively

> >> >> > recent, dating from the late nineteenth century. Though modern

> >> >> > historical works tend to "back date" the use of the title. The

> >> >> > contemporary records such as personal seals and documents tend

> >> >> > to show the use of "Tuan" or "Long" (from the Thai "Luang"

> >> >> > rather than Malay "sulong"). Tengku tended to be used for the

> >> >> > "gelar" titles only until the early 1900's.

> >> >> >

> >> >> > With best wishes,

> >> >> > Christopher

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > ________________________________

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Subject: RE: Abbreviations

> >> >> > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 07:18:13 +0800

> >> >> > From: Mahadhir.MatLazim@dhl.com


> >> >> > CC: donlaurel@gmail.com

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Christopher,

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Thanks for your quick reply. I really appreciate it :-)

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > And regarding Tengku Long Muhammad Saleh (He d. before 1931),

> >> >> > do you have any further info on him?

> >> >> >

> >> >> > My grandfather once told my aunt that his father Tengku Saleh

> >> >> > was an important person in the palace, had to guard the

> >> >> > state's gold & money during an invasion by Siam. He and a

> >> >> > handful of relatives fled to Kedah, married with a local woman

> >> >> > then returned to Kelantan after the death of his wife

> >> >> > (1919) without the son, i.e. my grandfather Tengku Daie (1910-2004).

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > The timeline just suits them both. May I also know why there's

> >> >> > no children recorded under him? Would it be because of the

> >> >> > journey to Kedah? My grandfather even told my aunt that Tengku

> >> >> > Saleh was reported died not long after his return to Kelantan,

> >> >> > or died on the journey back.

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Christopher,

> >> >> >

> >> >> > For your info Tengku Daie didn't register himself and his

> >> >> > children as Tengkus as he found it shameful to bear the royal

> >> >> > name due to extreme poverty during early 1900s towards 1970s.

> >> >> > His cousins Tengku Lokman, Tengku Hakim & Tengku Azmi, all

> >> >> > sons of Tengku Abdul Hamid bin Tengku Abdullah bin Tengku

> >> >> > Muhammad Saat keep the Tengkus before their names & their

> >> >> > children's till today.

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Thanks in advance for your help mate...

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Saludos/Best Regards/Um Abraço,

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Mahadhir Mat Lazim

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Service Desk Analyst

> >> >> >

> >> >> > IT Services Asia-Pacific

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Asia-Pacific Information Services Sdn Bhd

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Cyberjaya

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Malaysia

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Phone   +603 8315-8080

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Fax     +603 8315-8100

> >> >> >


> >> >> >

> >> >> > ________________________________

> >> >> >

> >> >> > From: Christopher Buyers [mailto:susuhanan@hotmail.co.uk]

> >> >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 1:26 PM

> >> >> > To: Mahadhir MatLazim (DHL MY)

> >> >> > Cc: donlaurel@gmail.com

> >> >> > Subject: RE: Abbreviations

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Dear Mahadhir,

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Thanks for your e-mail.

> >> >> >

> >> >> > MSC stands for "Member of the State Council".

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Good luck with your research.

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Cheers,

> >> >> > Christopher

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > ________________________________

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Subject: Abbreviations

> >> >> > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:57:26 +0800

> >> >> > From: Mahadhir.MatLazim@dhl.com


> >> >> > CC: donlaurel@gmail.com

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Dear Christopher,

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Could you please clarify what does the abbreviation "MSC" means?

> >> >> >

> >> >> > For example on kelant6.htm, I could see "3) Y.B.M. Tengku Long

> >> >> > Muhammad Saleh ibni al-Marhum Sultan Ahmad, Tengku Temenggong.

> >> >> > MSC 1900. He d.

> >> >> > before

> >> >> > 1931."

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > My name should be Tengku Mahadhir bin Tengku Mat Lazim bin

> >> >> > Tengku Daie bin Tengku Saleh, of Kelantanese descendants. So

> >> >> > I'm still searching for my very-very extended family tree.

> >> >> > Tengku Saleh and his brothers/relatives migrated to Kedah to

> >> >> > the end of 1800s and established themselves at Kuala Muda,

> >> >> > Kedah, now in the Penang side.

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Please help to cc to my gmail account as well.

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Thanks in advance for your info Christopher.

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Saludos/Best Regards/Um Abraço,

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Mahadhir Mat Lazim

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Service Desk Analyst

> >> >> >

> >> >> > IT Services Asia-Pacific

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Asia-Pacific Information Services Sdn Bhd

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Cyberjaya

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Malaysia

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Phone   +603 8315-8080

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Fax     +603 8315-8100

> >> >> >


> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > ________________________________

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Upgrade to Internet Explorer 8 Optimised for MSN. Download Now

> >> >> > <http://extras.uk.msn.com/internet-explorer-8/?ocid=T010MSN07A

> >> >> > 0716U>

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > ________________________________

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Beyond Hotmail - see what else you can do with Windows Live.

> >> >> > Find out more.


> >> >> >

> >> >> >

6 ulasan:

  1. Assalamualaikum,

    Kalau tidak silap pernah timbul cerita yang mengatakan kerabat Tengku Abdullah Lebar juga ada pertalian dengan kerabat (Raja Lembut?) Kelantan.

    Siapa Raja Lembut ni?

    BalasPadam
  2. Salam Megat..

    Raja Lembut????
    Raja Lembut itu Tuan Lembut dari Reman, satu keturunan dengan Long Gaffar.

    Mohon Megat jelaskan dari mana sumber ini..
    cuba Megat masuk blog sahabat dan kemungkinan saudara dekat hamba, Nik Rosley di kebunketereh.com, dan click tag Tuan Lembut..

    Subhanallah..
    makin banyak kemajuan pencarian kita sekarang..
    Inilah kelebihan IT, dan sebenarnya perancangan Allah semuanya..
    Dia hanya mahu kita berusaha.. :)

    BalasPadam
    Balasan
    1. Assalamualaikum Kerabat....
      Semakin menarik kaitan kita semua....Alhamdulillah jika ada kelapangan patek akan muatkan salasilah Raja Reman dalam blog untuk kita rungkaikan
      Insyaallah....
      ada kemajuannya

      Padam
    2. Tengku Hamid semasa hidup ada bercerita yang kita juga sememangnya mempunyai pertalian dengan kerabat Kelantan serta ada pula pertalian dengan Patani. Ketika itulah timbul nama Raja Lembut ni. Tak tahu pula ceritanya secara detail. Wallahu A'lam.

      Sedihnya bila tali dah terputus baru kita terkial-kial nak memintal semula jurai-jurai benang halusnya. Nasib-nasib...

      Padam
    3. Assalamualaikum Kerabat...
      Insyaallah Patek berikan info untuk mengetahui lebih lanjut cari lebel PAK TUAN dalam FB beliau adalah pengurusi persatuan/pertubuhan Kerabat Raja Reman....Insyaallah akan beroleh jawapannya...

      semuga dipermudahkan nanti
      semuanya sudah diatur selepas Syawal pembongkaran secara mengejut akan ada jawapannya

      Padam
  3. Alhamdulillah..

    Megat,
    Jelaslah pesan tok nenek kita selama ini yang kita dari Kelantan adalah benar. mereka sangat konsisten dengan negeri asal-usul kita tersebut, cuma kita kadang2 keliru kerana merasakan kelantan itu terlalu berbeza dengan kedah yang telah sebati dengan keluarga kita..
    Sebenarnya Kelantan itu adik-beradik dengan terengganu dan sepupu dengan kedah. Dengan terengganu terlalu biasa berbalah sebab adik-beradik, tapi bila urusan mencari perlindungan, kerabat kelantan berundur ke Kedah.
    Betul tak? hehe

    BalasPadam